MyDD :: Some fully QUALIFIED screenwriter wrote Ishtar.

Some fully QUALIFIED screenwriter wrote Ishtar.

by Lieber, Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:30:12 PM EST

Her name is Elaine May and she's fantastic.

Reds. Tootsie. Heaven Can Wait.

Really, really smart. Unbelievably witty.

I'd sell my writers soul to be her for a week.

And all her qualifications, Warren Beatty, Dustin Hoffman, and 34 million dollars couldn't save it from being a disaster one thousand times worse then your 3rd grade school photos.

Which is why the Clarke dust-up is both irrelevant and a trap.

Qualified?

Who the fuck cares if John McCain is qualified.

I'm sure I could find a completely "qualified" electrician, who has taken all the classes and passed all the tests, who might accidently wire my television to burn the house down.

You don't think there were "qualified" economists... guys who had degrees from all the right places... who wrote papers in all the write journals... who engineered our current economy?

Happens every day.

John McCain's plan for Iraq... is essentially Ishtar.

Spend an ass-load of money with an plot that goes nowhere to end up stuck in the desert for much longer than the audience (the Iraqi people) will put up with.

So, we can have the argument about "qualifictions" or we can cut to the chase:

John McCain's script sucks.

Fade to black.

Tags: Qualifications (all tags)

Permalink :: 39 Comments :: Post a Comment

George Bush went to Yale... (2.00 / 6)

...and that and three dollars can get you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks.

by Lieber on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:33:48 PM EST

Re: George Bush went to Yale... (2.00 / 2)

Starbucks!!

Finally outing yourself as an authentic latte-sipping liberal! :)

by candidate D on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:44:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just reading the title on the rec list broke me up laughing.

Lieber, don't break my heart by telling me you stole that from somewhere. That's brilliant! Obama should steal that phrase for use in his debates. I knew immediately where this diary was going before I even clicked on it. Pure poetry. Shit, I didn't even read your diary yet! I'm sure it's good.

by Dumbo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:23:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also (2.00 / 2)

I feel like noting that May wrote Primary Colors, as well. Another great film.

by DPW on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:39:02 PM EST

Re: Some fully "qualified" screenwriter (2.00 / 1)

She also wrote & directed the wonderful Mikey & Nickey.

But that one shot for more than half a year, took more than two years to cut, lost its DP a few times, created a whole lot of anguish, made no real money.

But I still really love the film (yeah, in spit of the microphone on Falk's tie and the recordist in their hotel-room.)

This has nothing to do with your argument (which is correct.) I just couldn't resist the chance to ramble about a really good & underseen film

by candidate D on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:42:15 PM EST

One of my favorite unsung comedies. (none / 0)

A New Leaf, starring Elaine May and Walter Matthau (one of the few films I can remember that starred Elaine May). She also cowrote it. Walter Matthau as a gold-digger marries clueless klutz heiress Elaine May and trys, Coyote and Roadrunner style, to kill her, not quite succeeding. Cute ending, although predictable.

by Dumbo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:27:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

while i think people are... (none / 0)

going overboard with these comments and agree with the intention behind this diary....

i had to blink and reread this diary. are suggesting that experience is overrated or unnecessary?????

let me give you a little lesson about filmmaking. in almost every country in the world - save for the US - in order to work and succeed in the film industries in these respective countries - one must work their way up through the 'system'. in japan, india, france, etc.

for example - one starts as a PA, then once they pay their dues and catch a lucky break they may get a job as a APC (asst. production coordinator, then onto a PC (production coordinator), then PM (production manager) - you're catching my drift?

experience counts. period.
(although one must not take experience over flawed policy)

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 03:53:21 PM EST

If experience REALLY counted.... (2.00 / 3)

...Ishtar would have been a huge hit.

As for EXPERIENCE mattering, it DOESN'T if the ideas that the EXPERIENCED person is working off of are sound.

Some very EXPERIENCED people planned the Bay of Pigs.

by Lieber on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:10:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the film analogies don't work. (none / 0)

because becoming a hit movie (or actually being good) has nothing to do with experience at times due to the fact that art is not subjective.

and may i ask how old you are? not to be condescending - but only really the young (as i did when i was in my 20's) undervalue the role of experience.

i am in my early 30's and i remember finishing university and applying for all these jobs that i didnt have experience for, but was SURE that i could do. guess what? no one called me back. you know why?

now that i have some experience under my belt and have 'done' some things - i know - experience counts. unless of course you want on the job training, with lots of errors, wasted time and resources, shoddy workmanship etc.

i might add that i am now talking on principle - not about the election.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:26:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm 39 and in the film industry and... (2.00 / 3)

...again, EXPERIENCE unto itself means next to nothing.

The fact that no one called you back is their issue and there need for "experience" may or may not have been prudent.

The generals who planned the Iraq invasion... how'd there "experience" work out for them? Same with the Bay of Pigs. If experience was enough to get the job done... well... then we'd just always go with the oldest person around.

Experience + bad ideas = a stubborn soul destined to fail.

by Lieber on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:37:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm 39 and in the film industry and... (2.00 / 2)

Which leads us to the most important question in this entire debate: Which one of you is going to help me, a recent college graduate, get an entry level position in rotoscoping and/or compositing? Haha

And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.

by thatpurplestuff on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:42:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what city do you live in? (2.00 / 1)

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:46:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what city do you live in? (2.00 / 2)

I live in Chico, California... which means I'm going to have to move in order to find any decent work. I've been looking at a few studios in the Bay Area and putting together a roto/compositing demo reel, but other than that I really don't even know where to start.

And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.

by thatpurplestuff on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:48:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what city do you live in? (2.00 / 1)

cant help much right now. but...

yeah - SF is a good start (and a wonderful city) - my advice - put together a good demo and creative way of highlighting what you bring to the table and go for it.

and/or

work every connection you have to the bone.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what city do you live in? (2.00 / 2)

Haha I wasn't really expecting help, but thank you for the advice. I've got a few connections for a studio in Berkeley that seems like a cool place to work, and they said they'll be doing some roto hiring "at the end of summer." Hopefully that will pan out... we'll see. Thanks again for your input!

And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.

by thatpurplestuff on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

EXPERIENCE unto itself means next to nothing. (2.00 / 1)

couldnt agree more with that.

but the whole point for me is - the 'ideal' candidate for any job (including when i hire people) is a combination of skills, experience and potential.

each are important. the way i read you diary - is that you are suggesting that experience is overrated (or not important) and it definitely is.

btw - what do you do? i studied and worked in film for a while and maybe getting back into the industry.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:44:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Canadian....you're talking to the creator (2.00 / 1)

of the famed TV series "Lost"....just a thought...

by louisprandtl on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oh my dear lord. (2.00 / 1)

seriously? lol

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:10:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: while i think people are... (2.00 / 3)

James Buchanan was probably the most experienced man to become President. Abraham Lincoln was probably the least.

The former allowed the Union to fall apart. The latter put it back together.

Yes, experience is a factor, but it is one of many.

by Reaper0Bot0 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:26:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: while i think people are... (none / 0)

i am not referring to the election - but rather on principle. but with regard to history - i personally have a BIG problem with people not paying their dues.

take for example - nader. why on god's green earth did a consumer advocate think that he had any of the relevant skills to be president? he didnt.

now - if he was serious and ran for congress or some other political position - did it for some time - and then chose to ran for president - i think a whole lot of people would have taken him more seriously.

i have no problem with inexperienced people wanting to be involved in their political system to make a difference. its just that this meme that 'experience' doesnt count really undermines just how difficult and demanding politcal roles carry.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:33:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: while i think people are... (none / 0)

I don't think filmmaking requires all that much experience (it requires some experience, but not a whole lot).

David Gorgon Green made George Washington for $40,000 and had almost no experience, using amateur kid actors. It (justifiably) made dozens of top ten lists that year.

Neil Labute made his first film In the Company of Men for $25,000 without any real experience in film (he had directed some plays, but that's about it).

David Mamet's made his directorial debut House of Games without any experience, also using many amateur actors (including his wife). Another outstanding film.

There are many other examples (Easy Rider, Clerks, Slacker) as well. Now, I still think experience helps. Most of these directors have gotten better with experience, but what's interesting is that they new their limitations during early efforts and were able to to make the appropriate adjustment to excel despite such limitations.

The problem with experienced people, often, is that they have certain blind spots as a result of habit and confidence. Perhaps McCain has convinced himself that he's such an expert on foreign policy that the doesn't feel the need to ask questions or seek further counsel from other voices. Or maybe not. But, experience can be a liability in some instances.

by DPW on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:54:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: while i think people are... (none / 0)

"new" should be "knew"

by DPW on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 04:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yep. (2.00 / 1)

you provided a great list of film/filmmakers that created great movies without a lot of experience.

but what of kurisawa? altman? scorcese? godard? antonioni?

the 'auteurs' as they are known. through their experience and mistakes they became the genuises they are today. (that is not to say that they didnt always have talent) but one harnesses their potential and skills though through experience.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep. (2.00 / 1)

Scorcese has made some of my favorite films, but it's been a while since he made a truly great film. Goodfellas was probably the last. So, he might serve as a example demonstrating the diminishing marginal utility of experience.

Altman's last film, on the other hand, was one of his best IMO (A Prairie Home Companion). But, Altman was exactly consistently great at any point in his career. He took a lot of risks, which led to mixed results.

If I had to generalize, however, I tend to think that filmakers do much of their best work early in their career, but after some substantial measure of experience. Then, they have a slump. Then, after learning from some failure, return with something outstanding. The Coen Bros., for example, turned in a few weak films in recent years, but No Country For Old Men is simply amazing. Mike Nichols (one of Elaine May's colleages) has gone through several phases of this kind.

Anyway, my basis point is that experience can help and hurt. Some of it is necessary, especially if the project is sophisticated and complex, but eventually it yeilds diminishing returns as well as certain liabilities.

by DPW on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:23:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yep. (2.00 / 1)

above should say, "Altman was NOT exactly consistent . . ."

by DPW on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:28:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Another "auteur": (2.00 / 1)

Tarantino. And his first movie, Reservoir Dogs, really belongs on the list you responded to.

But what it really boils down to, canadian gal, is that when faced with the choice between a person with experience but no talent and a person with talent but no experience, you would be a fool to choose the former over the latter.

Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?

by Elsinora on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:48:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "auteur": (1.50 / 4)

I was going to same the exact same thing!

Reservoir Dogs is classic.

Blair Witch Project? LOL! Kidding. Kidding.

How about American Beauty?

Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!

by spacemanspiff on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:25:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Another "auteur": (1.50 / 4)

I was going to same! ROFL!

I was going to SAY the same thing. ; )

Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!

by spacemanspiff on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:26:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

agreed. (none / 0)

as i said in my first comment. but 'experience' is not on its own work in a vacuum.

"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg

by canadian gal on Tue Jul 01, 2008 at 01:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't know why anyone would bother making (none / 0)

arguments that experience doesn't matter, it does! Yes, you can find examples of "qualified" people in many professions who screw things up badly. But, if you have an operation you want a qualified person performing it. The same is true if you have your car repaired. If you want to invest in a big $200 million budget movie you probably won't give it to someone who hasn't already proven themselves. Why would the presidency be any different?

Obama has experience on domestic policy. He's much less experienced in foreign policy but does have some. He needs a strong VP who is viewed as a centrist to balance the ticket.

Obama will probably win because of his youthful appearance and his charisma and he's not Bush. He will not win any votes based on his perceived foreign policy credentials...he has little to none. He will win based on the visuals. The visuals will make the statement that he can't himself: I'm young, smart and full of energy and my opponent is old, mentally slow and as exciting as a cold mash-potatoe sandwhich.

by mmorang on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:40:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In my fifties... (none / 0)

I might be more amenable to your argument if we weren't living through ISHTAR at this very moment.

Imagine sitting in that theater and wishing you had bought tickets for Beetlejuice (same theater, same time, as I recall) while some asshole next to you droned on about how vastly experienced were all the people who worked on Ishtar.

We need somebody who can GET US OUT OF ISHTAR!!!!

by Dumbo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

a 16 sentence (none / 0)

summary of the gospel truth in this election.

Now that, Jeff, is packing a punch.

by UrbanRedneck on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 05:09:43 PM EST

Sixteen sentences? (2.00 / 1)

He said it all with six words in the title. Strunk and White couldn't have put it more concisely.

by Dumbo on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 08:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Some fully QUALIFIED screenwriter wrote Ishtar (none / 0)

and there have been filmmakers/screenwriters that have done ONE movie that was a hit and then faded away.

one-hit wonders.

it goes both ways.

by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:04:14 PM EST

Re: Some fully QUALIFIED screenwriter wrote Ishtar (none / 0)

forgot to add - the difference between experience folks and one hit wonders is that experience folks can weather a flop or two and come back with a resounding hit again. One hit wonders cannot.

just saying

by colebiancardi on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 06:05:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Despite all the quack doctors out there, I still (none / 0)

insist on seeing a doctor that is in fact a real doctor, preferably one with experience.

Obama is going to Iraq and Europe. After he gives some speeches there and here in the US, he needs to pick a VP with foreign policy experience.

Obama's appeal is that he's young, bright and charismatic. His unspoken argument against McCain is that he is old and dumb. His spoken argument against McCain is that he's Bush's 3rd term.

Once Obama put's Clinton on the ticket, McCain's inexperienced argument is deluted. A lot of other problems are solved as well. There were even some Hillary-haters over at Kos who admitted they look great together.

by mmorang on Mon Jun 30, 2008 at 07:22:05 PM EST

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